Welcome To Challenge2
Posted by jerry in Uncategorized on September 6, 2011
Welcome to my Challenge2 blog site. Here on Challenge2 we will be dealing with many of the things that we deal with on the Challenge2 email discussion list as well as the Challenge2 website. We will be dealing with Christianity vs Atheism, as well as theistic evolution (aka Old Earth Creation). The Bible tells us to “try the spirits whether they are of God” (1 Jn. 4:1). This is our reason for existing, to try the spirit of atheism/agnosticism/theistic evolution, not only to see if they are of God, but in fact to show that they are not of God.
We do not have ill-will towards anyone, but we will not stand by while humanism ravages our world without fighting it. We have debates on this site, both public and written, so that all may read them and make an informed decision about what to believe. We will not be dealing much with textual criticism as that is a subject that is covered on our sister site Challenge2biblicalexamination. If we can help you in any way please let us know.
In Christ Jesus
Jerry D. McDonald
A Very Lucrative Business
Posted by jerry in Uncategorized on March 15, 2013
Most people think of abortion as service for women who are raped (to include cases of incest), or have ectoptic pregnancies (where the baby has started development in the fallopian tubes). They don't understand that over four thousand abortions are performed in this country alone, each and every day, and that most of these abortions are performed simply because the mother doesn't want the responsibility of raising a child.
The Treaty of Tripoli and Our Founding Fathers
Posted by jerry in Uncategorized on October 1, 2012
Does the Tripoli Treaty prove that the Founding Fathers were not Religious? The preceeding link leads to an article on the Apologetics Press website. It shows the deceitfulness of the atheist and liberal in trying to indoctrinate our youth with the idea that our founding fathers were not religious men
RUNNING DEBATE ON ABORTION.COM PT 2
Posted by jerry in Uncategorized on September 17, 2012
Abortion.com 7) Jerry – In all your blabbering you still did not answer the question. Your fairy tales have harmed your mind. We asked that you reveal proof the Woman was thinking that she was having an abortion for mere convenience. You have never come close.Why are all your statements so laughable and completely miss the point? Please pay attention to the question, tx!
about an hour ago · Like · 1
Abortion.com 8) Jerry apparently you know very little biology. Before we mentioned it you didn’t even know what a molar pregnancy was, a cornual pregnancy, a complete anencephalic pregnancy. …See More
about an hour ago · Like · 1
Abortion.com Lastly you make it obvious you have No knowledge of how to interpret peer reviewed refereed objective data. A common problem among right wing magic believing misogynists.
Are you…See More
about an hour ago · Like · 1
Jerry McDonald Yes I did deal with what the woman was thinking. Gianna Jessen’s mother told her what she was thinking when she got the abortion. Of course her telling Gianna this was done many years after the abortion. It was after Gianna tracked her down through private investigators. After Gianna survived the abortion she was put up for adoption and was adopted by her parents. When she was 20 she tracked down her birth mother. It was then that her birth mother told her why she got the abortion.
7 minutes ago · Like
Jerry McDonald I notice that you never did deal with the statistics that I gave with the Guttmacher Institute on reasons women get abortion. Why? Because you know that most abortions are done for convenience sake.
4 minutes ago · Like
Jerry McDonald I had not heard of molar pregnancy before now, but I did know what cornual pregnancy was, it is ectoptic pregnancy which is what I was talking about earlier, and I also was aware of anencephalic pregnancy as well. You have no logical response to what I have said, so you choose to attack me instead. How Ad Hominem of you.
2 minutes ago · Like
Jerry McDonald Boy, you sure are the first atheist to pull that one on me. No, wait a minute…Farrell Till tried that one years ago. Sorry, you’re too late. You have no logical response to what I said about the article on “After Birth Abortion” so you choose to attack me instead. How Ad Hominem of you.
a few seconds ago · Like
- Abortion.com It is the ONLY legitimate reason?What about a Partial Molar Pregnancy? Isn’t that a reason too?Which way is it Dr. McDonald?
about an hour ago · Like · 1
Jerry McDonald Oh, you now go back to the place where I dealt with ectoptic pregnancy which was before we discussed Partial Molar Pregnancy. And as I have already stated that too would be included, but you have dishonestly tried to make it look as if I made this statement after our discussion on PMP. How dishonest of you.
13 minutes ago · Like
Abortion.com wrote: “Jerry you said Only ectopic. You were wrong.
Again very non christian of you to be so judgmental.
Jerry McDonald wrote: You know that I wrote that before I you brought up the molar pregnancy. Don’t lie! Here is the proof that I changed:
Jerry McDonald I believe I have already answered this, but Iwill answer again. Eptoptic pregnancy is the only legitimate reason for abortion and if we ever become technically able to save the child and woman here it would be murder to abort then.
Yesterday at 5:23pm · Like
Abortion.com Is Abortion OK for a Partial Molar Pregnancy?
Yesterday at 6:22pm · Like · 1
- Jerry McDonald From what I understand about this most of these cases end in miscarriage. There is no way to save the child and there is a danger to the mother’s life, so in that case such would be acceptable.
Yesterday at 6:46pm · Like
Abortion.com Glad to hear that you think there are innumerable reasons that abortion is acceptable and that you are Pro Choice on this issue. Now you are making some sense?
Yesterday at 7:09pm · Like · 1
Jerry McDonald Any situation where there is no chance to save the child and the life of the mother is threatened then abortion would be acceptable, but these are rare. Most abortions are done for convenience sake and you know it.
Yesterday at 7:10pm · Like
Jerry McDonald I may not know all of the medical situations, which is why I say “any situation where there is no chance to save the child and the life of the mother is threatened.”
Yesterday at 7:11pm · Like
Jerry McDonald Oh, you now go back to the place where I dealt with ectoptic pregnancy which was before we discussed Partial Molar Pregnancy. And as I have already stated that too would be included, but you have dishonestly tried to make it look as if I made this statement after our discussion on PMP. How dishonest of you.
9 hours ago · Like
How can you continue to accuse me of saying that ectoptic pregnancy is the only legitimate cause when you know full well that I have backed up on that? That is dishonesty on your part.
Abortion.com
Did you answer about Complete Anencephalics?
Jerry McDonald: Yes I did answer about the Complete Anecephalic pregnancy. Notice what I said: “Jerry McDonald “The alleged benefit to result from induction of labor under such circumstances is to relieve the mother of the psychological trauma of having to carry a grossly abnormal fetus throughout the full term of her pregnancy” (http://www.safemotherhood.org/anencephaly/pregnancy.html). Since the reason is to relieve the mother psychological trauma and her life is not in danger, then abortion is wrong in this case.
Abortion.com
Did you answer why your religion is truer than other religions with any real data?
Jerry McDonald: I tried to answer, but you said that I couldn’t use the Bible which means that I can’t use it to prove that it is harmonious from cover to cover. I can’t use it for any reason, yet it is the very basis for my faith. However, you will use it to cut my faith down. You won’t listen to anything I write about my belief system because you want me to produce evidence that is separate and apart from my religious belief. I could use arguments from logic and philosophy to argue for the existence of God and then use the Bible to show who that God is, but you won’t allow that. So how would you want me to answer? You want some empirical evidence of God such as a picture of God? Find a picture of your conscience! You can’t, but you know that you have one.
Abortion.com
Did you provide your credentials to comment on matters you appear to know almost nothing about?
Jerry McDonald: I have no medical credentials, but I had no medical credentials when I underwent cancer treatment in 2000. But I studied all I could get my hands on about my cancer, and made my doctors discuss everything over with me. I was part of every decision that was made concerning my treatment. I am a high school graduate. I spent four years in the US Navy. I graduated from 3 Navy firefighting schools. I graduated from the Brown Trail school of Preaching where I studied logic, philosophy, Greek, comparative religions and Bible Geography (1980-1982). I went to DeVry Institute and took electronics, I did not graduate because I went back to full time preaching. I graduated from the A.D. Banker school of Insurance in KCMO. I graduated from the St. Charles Law Enforcement Academy 1993. I am in my senior year at the Online Academy of Biblical Studies where I study Bible. I have preached for 30+ years and spent 11 years as a police officer in Missouri. While I don’t have medical credentials I am not some imbecile who does not understand what he reads. I understand just fine. What are your credentials?
Abortion.com
Did you answer the question about a women with a stage 2b Cervical Cancer who is 2 weeks pregnant?
Jerry McDonald: The following is from the AMA discussing a woman with stage 2b cervical cancer who is 20 weeks pregnant. However, the treatment would be the same. At two weeks the fetus’ heart is already beating. It is not just cells.
“The counseling dilemma is complicated by the fact that no one knows what the prognosis is for stage II cancer of the cervix in a patient who delays treatment to achieve neonatal viability. There are several small studies of patients with stage I cancer of the cervix (where the tumor has not extended beyond the cervix) in which treatment was delayed until after delivery of a viable infant [3-5], and there was no untoward effect on survival related to such a delay. Because stage II cancer of the cervix in pregnancy is so uncommon, however, there is simply no evidence that 5-year survival of stage II cancer of the cervix in pregnancy is worse if treatment is delayed until after delivery.
Another option for Mrs. Smith to consider is chemotherapy during pregnancy followed by definitive therapy with radical surgery or radiation after the infant is born. Trials have shown benefit in combining chemotherapy with radiation for stage II cervical cancer [6], and a number of case reports of chemotherapy with cisplatin during pregnancy found no adverse effects on the fetus or newborn [7,8]. The rationale for such treatment is to avoid metastatic spread of the cancer during pregnancy while awaiting definite treatment with radiation or surgery after the birth of the infant. Still, the Smiths must make their decision based on a substantial degree of medical uncertainty.
To counsel the patient from a perspective of optimism and hope, it would be safe to say to the Smiths that, given the information we have about the lack of adverse effects from delaying treatment for stage I cancer of the cervix in pregnancy, it is reasonable to believe that a delay of treatment for stage II cancer would have a similarly benign effect. This counseling might draw attention to the benefits of having a son or daughter for Mrs. Smith and her husband” (http://virtualmentor.ama-assn.org/2007/09/ccas1-0709.html).
You are too quick to abort the child. How would you counsel the woman? What if she wanted to keep the child? What if she didn’t believe in abortion, what would you do?
Abortion.com
Please answer the questions and stop evading them. You are very transparent in your lack of knowledge.
If you try to be intellectually honest you will only help your cause rather than harm it by appearing so judgmental (in a Christian Ethnocentric way) and disingenuous.
Jerry, we appreciate your input immensely as it reveals to everyone how poor the positions of anti abortion people are and how they are never able to support the most simple of positions.
Thank you for your assistance in this manner. It is appreciated.
You may enjoy commenting at
as this is an easier interface to communicate, and there are more people there with your positions.
Wishing you the best in all your endeavors.
Praise the Baby Jesus.
Tx!”
Jerry McDonald: Are you saying that you want me to leave? Are you tired of dealing with me? I am fine right where I am at. Why would you praise baby Jesus when you said Jesus was nothing more than a mythical sky god?
Anti-Bully Advocate Bullies Bible Believers
Posted by jerry in Uncategorized on April 30, 2012
People who understand the Bible the least, usually criticize it the most. Such is the case with Dan Savage, the nationally syndicated sex advice columnist, who is a homosexual, has a boyfriend and a child. In a recent speech to a group of High School Teens, at a Journalism Convention, a number of them got up and walked out on him because of his slurs against the Bible. As they walked out he bullied them even further by making fun of them, showing his ignorance on issues such as slavery, virginity and homosexuality. It always amazes me how people like this criticize people for doing something then turn right around to commit the very same action that they criticize others for doing. In the religious world there are those we call “love advocates” because they contend that we are to accept whatever a person does or believes because of our love for them. They say that love causes us to be tolerant. Yet, if you disagree with them they immediately show you just how deep their convictions run. For example, one of these “love advocates” once told me that he loved me like a brother, but he was so angry with me (because of a sermon he heard me preach) that he wanted me to take me behind the building and beat the daylights out of me. I told him not to love me so much.
Mr. Savage bashed a group of High School students who stand against homosexuality because the Bible teaches that it is a sin. He brought up the Bible’s teachings on slavery and the Old Testament Law on being a virgin until marriage to show that if the Bible was wrong on those issues then it was wrong on homosexuality. Notice the video which is posted below:
Now let’s deal with the issues of slavery and virginity that he brought up, and we will see that he knows absolutely nothing about what the Bible teaches.
Did Paul write a letter to Philemon concerning the slave Onesimus? Yes, he did. Did he order Philemon to release his slaves? No, he didn’t. However, what he did order was that Philemon release Onesimus from his servitude and accept him back as a brother:
“For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever; Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh, and in the Lord? If thou count me therefore a partner, receive him as myself“ (Phm 1:15-17).
By the time that Paul wrote this, slavery was a common way of life, and the world was deeply entrenched in it, and sometimes a gentle suggestion works better than a stern rebuke. The Christian teaching on love for one’s fellowman would go further in stopping slavery than a sharp rebuke. Jesus taught his disciples to love one’s neighbor as he loved himself (Mt. 19:19). With this being the case, how can you keep a loved one in slavery? Masters were instructed: ”Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven“ (Col 4:1). When men realize that they have a master in heaven, and when they remember that God treats us as we treat others (Mt. 6:13-15; 7:12) they begin to realize that they are supposed to treat even their servants with respect, which would ultimately bring them to not keep slaves. Savage criticized Paul for not ordering the immediate of his slaves, but he said nothing about Paul’s instruction to immediately release Onesimus from servitude. For such an admission would show the hypocrisy of his position.
Christ taught his disciples that they are supposed to even love their enemies (Mt. 5:43-44). So if one is to love his enemies, then surely one will recognize that keeping one in servitude is wrong. When the totality of Christ’s teaching is taken into effect we can see that the Bible teaches against slavery. A specific command is not always needed to show that the Bible is against something. The Bible teaches against abortion, but there is no place where the Bible specifically says that abortion is wrong. However, when one takes into consideration that the Bible teaches that the unborn is equal to one who is born and that it is murder to murder one who is born, we can see that the Bible teaches that abortion is murder. Some seem to have the idea that where there is no specific prohibition, liberty is permitted. The New Testament does not specifically forbid the use of instrumental music in worship, but it tells us what kind of music we are to have (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16).
Now dealing with the Mosaic Law of virginity on one’s wedding night (Deut. 22:13-21). We live in a promiscuous society where almost any immoral act is allowed. This is evident by the fact that Mr. Savage is a homosexual. Under Mosiac Law God was strict when it came to one’s sexuality. People were not participate in sexuality outside of marriage, period. Men were not to lie with men, and women were not to lie with women (Lev. 20:13). God wanted his people to be sexually pure and free from disease. One of the major problems we have today is that of sexually transmitted diseases (STD’s), and it is a problem because our society is so sexually permissive that we allow anything and everything. So sexually permissive are we that we have had the AID’s epidemic for more than 30 years with no chance of a cure for it. People blame God because we don’t have people to find the cure for AID’s, but man is the one who keeps this disease going by his lack of restraint. Man seems think that sex is meant for recreation. It isn’t! God meant it for two reasons (1) a special way in which a man and woman (who are married to each other) can express their love for one another; and (2) for the propagation of the race. When we engage in sex for any other reason we pervert it and as a result we have STD’s.
What Mr. Savage’s real problem with the Bible is not virginity, or slavery. His real problem is with the Biblical teaching on homosexuality. If the Bible allowed homosexuality he would not criticize it, and would point to it as a justification of his perverse lifestyle. But because the Bible condemns homosexuality he criticizes it, and searches for reasons not to accept the Bible.
The Bible simply teaches that homosexuality is an abomination before God and man (Rom. 1:20-26). Even nature teaches that homosexuality is a perversion. Two men cannot naturally have a child, and neither can two women. You have to have a male and female in order to produce a child. The only way that Mr. Savage and his “boyfriend” can ever have a child is to join sperm to an egg, which can produce a child. Mr. Savage and his boyfriend will never naturally produce a child, period. His perverted acts with his “boyfriend” are abominations before God, that the Bible will never allow. For this reason Mr. Savage strikes out against the Bible and believers in it.
He has no room for tolerance that he advocates for homosexuality when he derides the Bible. In other words, “What say about tolerating homosexuality is to be listened to, but that toleration does not extend to people who believe in the Bible.” This is the real “anti-bullying policy for Dan Savage” and it is something that is clearly seen in his rants against Bible believers.
In Christ Jesus
Jerry McDonald
Responding to Roe: We Will Not Rest!
Posted by jerry in Uncategorized on January 31, 2012
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Thirty-nine years ago the U. S. Supreme Court wiped from the books of all fifty states every law protecting the unborn child. In what Justice Byron White called an act of raw judicial power, seven of nine justices imposed on our land the perverse doctrine that a woman’s dignity depends upon her right to destroy her child. In concurrent decisions, Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton, the Supreme Court created a constitutional right to abortion on demand and initiated a reign of terror against unborn children that has resulted in the deaths of close to 55 million babies.
Missouri Right to Life | Post Office Box 651 | Jefferson City | MO | 65102
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Stupid Statements We Make
Posted by jerry in Uncategorized on January 31, 2012
I remember a number of years ago I head a woman, on a talk show, tell about her daughter getting an abortion. She stated that she was so afraid that the procedure room would be filthy and germy, but she was surprised when she saw that it was so clean and the people were so professional. She said that this made it all right in her mind, so she went ahead and signed for her daughter to have the abortion. This woman really needs a “Stupid Sign.”
I have a hard time understanding why the cleanliness of a room and/or the professional attitude of the staff would make abortion all right in anyone’s mind. Most slave owners were very professional people and most of them kept their houses clean, they had all the black help they needed to do just that, but slavery was still wrong.
The illogical thinking of people often embarrasses me because we are given abilities in thinking that animals do not have, yet we try to be as much like animals as we can get. I guess that is because many of these people think that we are nothing more than animals. They don’t see the difference between humans and animals. We are supposed to have highly educated people, but it seems to me that a flock of geese have more intelligence than many people today.
Click on the word link for an article on partial birth abortions, but you might consider looking at the picture if you have a weak stomach. I consider myself to have a strong stomach (after 4 years in the Navy and 11 years as a cop), but this one even took me by surprise and made me sick. It is from a blog, and one of the comments to the article was as follows:
Steve (“Klotz” As In “Blood”) said…
Manny, you know very well that the term “partial birth abortion” is not a medical term, and that doctors don’t “sever and smash the limbs” of the fetus. Hysterical mischaracterizations of abortion do nothing but intellectually damage the abortion opponents’ position.
Personally, I believe abortion should be an option up until the child turns, say, 18. After that, parents are obligated to permit their offspring to survive.
4/18/2007 3:41 PM (Okay, he needs a stupid sign)
This is one of those stupid statements that humans often make, much like Kosherkracker, in my debate with him taking the absurd position that the fetus is nothing more than a parasite that the mother should get rid of.
We have really gone overboard with stupid statements, and if statements like the ones I have mentioned weren’t so serious it would be laughable. But it really is a serious issue. Some people are so stupid when it comes to the topic of abortion, and the worst part of it is, they want to stay that way.
The prophet Hosea wrote: ”My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children“ (Hos 4:6). There is no excuse for stupidity, and one day God will punish the evil doer because of their stupidity and it will do no good to say that I was ignorant on the matter because we have the obligation to “Study to shew thyself approved unto God” (2 Tim. 2:15). ”At the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth he all men every where to repent” (Acts 17:30). Stupidity is no excuse for breaking God’s laws, and it just won’t fly in the day of judgment.
Let’s not be stupid on the matter, let’s educate ourselves and take a stand against abortion. Let us pick up a sign that says “No To Abortion.”
